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Post by Kleanthes on Jun 10, 2004 17:35:54 GMT -5
Read Michael Albert's (2003) PARECON: PARTICIPATORY ECONOMICS (Verso) for a nice post-capitalist economy (and much beyond).
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ghost
New Member
Posts: 44
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Post by ghost on Jun 11, 2004 5:09:10 GMT -5
DPR: (1) people organize not only to be politically active. They can decide to do something to make their life better without turning into a political party of some sort, (2) when I said we 'naturally evolved' capitalism, I was thinking that capitalists are not Martians, they are human in all respects; then, there are no super(natural)forces fighting for control of humanity and shaping societies. No one came from somewhere outside and put human-like capitalists in charge. The shape society takes comes from what people do or not do (or is there a socio-economical super(natural)force after all?). Yes, capitalism was imposed on the working class, but we cannot treat it as something completely from the outside.
What I was implying, I guess, was that Kropotkin may have made two mistakes: on the one hand, he forgot capitalists are people too, and on the other, did not quite get rid of the assumption that there is a force shaping society in evil ways.
And then, why only capitalism? It did not invent exploitation - slavery existed long before, in most societies women were not equal to men, feudalism was not a utopia either. Capitalism is just one example. maybe there were and even are fair societies where all people are equal, and no one is more 'equal' than his neighbour, but they are not very successful - they fail to dominate in the world.
I am not defending capitalism, no. Or Sowjet socialism either. Anarchism seems to actually be the only ideology that cares about every person: her/his freedom, individuality, well-being. Patterns based on it should exist and be healthy and vital societies. But we see that instead patterns based on exploitation and brainwash dominate. Is there something to exploitation that makes it so flexible and fit?
Most of what I've said here seems obvious to me, so it is bound to be wrong somewhere. Throw rotten tomatoes at me.
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D.P. Rubino
New Member
More a question than a curse, How can hell be any worse?
Posts: 20
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Post by D.P. Rubino on Jun 12, 2004 3:28:10 GMT -5
Kleanthes: Michael Albert's work is very impressive--I always like to recommend him as well when people ask "what else besides capitalism?" For those of you not familiar, he started Z-Magazine where Chomsky, Zinn, etc. like to contribute. All good stuff.
Natasha: No, I agree..there is something about domination, exploitation, etc. that "works" well...I mean fascism can accomplish a lot in society. I'm not kidding here either or being sarcastic...unfortunately, a lot of western civ. has been built by exploiting people. And there is a clear relation to the "animal" world in this regard that makes it seem natural (as many I'm sure would argue--the "it's human nature" argument).
I guess the one good thing in all of this is that, in general, things are getting better for everyone. I know that seems an odd statement from a lefty--but I'm speaking here loosely of freedom in general--of course there's the "responsibilty" part as well which can be ignored by the masses. But for me, that's what anarchism promises:
I've always loved that quote because I think it just represents perfectly that human desire to be free and for those to push society to its limits to see how far that can go.
Getting to your point, about Kropotkin, I'm not read up enough currently to direclty comment, but I'll take your word on it--some of the "classic" guys had all sorts of issues--some thought women were inferior, others supported wars, some even supported government, etc. So in general, I always read them with a grain of salt and throw orthodoxy out the door (if there was any to begin with). Capitalism is merely another way to organize a society/economy--it seems at fundemental levels to contradict or limit human freedom which is why it may be "unnatural", like a prison is--but sure, ultimatley it is another product of human minds that has been tailor fit to our society.
But I'm rambling now..and tired!
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Post by Kleanthes on Jun 15, 2004 3:50:34 GMT -5
I put a few things online, stolen shamelessly from (mainly) ZNet. It's for a couple of classes I'll be teaching in Cologne on "Science and Responsibility". The page is mainly in German (target audience), but most readings are in English. Maybe it makes sense to some, maybe you have suggestions. I know it's a bit too ambitious, that's why I tried to breakdown HOT items. Each of the boldafced 1, 2, 3 headings are different classes and the Roman numerals indicate potential themes we could go through. I doubt that we'll be able to tackle each of these themes in each class, but I hear there's a good crowd in class: they all (80% of the students plus the two instructors, three as of next week) go out afterwards -- from 7pm to drop! Apparently my two colleagues have been the wekaest links, they retire at 1ish, while the students keep going till 3, 4, 5 in the morning. So: plenty of time for everything after all?! Again: SUGGESTIONS WELCOME. Thanks! www.punksinscience.org/kleanthes/courses/WV
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ghost
New Member
Posts: 44
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Post by ghost on Jun 25, 2004 8:43:15 GMT -5
Daniel: thank you for the interesting discussion!
Kleanthes: some of the readings for your summer Cologne classes address questions I'd had for some time and thought they were mine only, but now it looks like I'm actually in a good company.
With all this new information, I understand you both (and, hopefully, anarchists and punks generally) much better.
Natasha.
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Post by Kleanthes on Jun 28, 2004 10:01:46 GMT -5
Excellent, Natasha! As my long-time absence shows, I'm not Mr Free Time right now. Hope to say more later. Keep posting everyone!
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eyecon
New Member
yay schinkelism!
Posts: 6
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Post by eyecon on Jul 4, 2004 18:56:39 GMT -5
Hi everyone,
I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Clemens and I'm a student from cologne who got onto this page through a message sent from our university- network. I'm no linguist, so the message wouldn't have interested me further, but Kleas email-adress made me curious and so I went here. As I said I'm neither a linguist, nor am I a punk, I'm not even a scientist in the way the word is usually used. I study art history, philosophie(well, that's in a way science...) and scandinavistic philology(that's maybe getting closer to the linguists). I decided to subscribe here, because I really enjoy the idea of some unconventional people coming together in a field where most people want you to appear as "normal" and cannot accept you thinking and looking different. I listen mostly to metal and even in our oh-so-tolerant society it is still aproblem for some people to accept that somebody who has long hair, black clothes and a favour for "strange"art can do different than just drinking and sacrificing little babys or something. However, I like your idea and I hope this page will get an immense following!
eyecon
p.s.: sorry if my english is bad somtimes...I'm working on it
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ghost
New Member
Posts: 44
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Post by ghost on Jul 5, 2004 14:32:23 GMT -5
Clemens: so there are now two of us, non-punk unconventional people here! Natasha
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eyecon
New Member
yay schinkelism!
Posts: 6
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Post by eyecon on Jul 5, 2004 16:13:08 GMT -5
So I'm not the only one, great! But as far as I know about punks(I think I don't know anyone in person who really is one) and what I read in this forum it's the-uh- "punky attitude" ;D which puts us together! And if this is really it this site and the idea behind it could be really revolutionary! Other question: can anybody tell me how to get a "myname@punksinscience" adress?
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Hubsi
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by Hubsi on Jul 6, 2004 3:47:19 GMT -5
Other question: can anybody tell me how to get a "myname@punksinscience" adress? You have to say: "Hey, that PIS sounds pretty cool. Count me in." as you can read on www.punksinscience.org in the FAQ section. I really don't know how Klea is going to hear that, but he'll probably give you an address. Alternatively you can mail him, or wait for him to read your post and (hopefully) react. Besides I am not really a punk either, but I strive to be different. And while I also listen mainly to Metal, I try to keep an open mind and listen to other non-mainstream music as well.
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eyecon
New Member
yay schinkelism!
Posts: 6
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Post by eyecon on Jul 6, 2004 17:37:38 GMT -5
Thanks a lot Hubsi!
Maybe I should start reading before trying to get involved into science... ;D Already said that stuff, but I think after all I will try the mail- solution.
Besides, I said I listen to metal, but not ONLY to metal. I also enjoy other bands and musicians very much, such as Björk, Garbage, Bach(well...neither band nor musician, but anyway), Keith Caputo, Morcheeba,... Never limit yourself! I listen to everything that simply sounds good to me.
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Stew
New Member
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Post by Stew on Jul 8, 2004 15:41:12 GMT -5
Hey, another introduction:
My name is Cary, but some of my friends call me Stewie as well. I'm currently working on a Masters of Environmental Studies in Philadelphia, and previously I've studied Plant Biology, and have worked in the fields of environmental education and environmentally-sustainable housing. While I don't really call myself an anarchist, I definitely have a lot in common with the anarchist movement. I listen to a lot of good music too (thrash to hardbop jazz to doom to rocksteady). I don't know what else to say, I'm a maniac.
This site (and network) is a sweet idea and I'm super into it. Also, I'm currently in the process of designing a website for "punk" teachers and others involved in education (including students). Hopefully it will be up sometime in August, and I'll keep you all posted. Anyway, just wanted to say hi. -Cary
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Post by Kleanthes on Jul 14, 2004 10:21:26 GMT -5
wow, a lot happened and i've been totally incommunicado. many apologies. two notes: (i) we're working on a really cool new PIS design and (ii) a PIS address can at the moment be "obtained" by email request to me, so go ahead and send me a mail. in a rush -- and sorry hubs i really can't make it this this weekend (s. meine mail an andy)...
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leni
New Member
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Post by leni on Jul 14, 2004 14:24:49 GMT -5
hi everyone i m Leni. I m a french student of linguistics. I have just finished a first year master dissertation on the early developments of "do" as an auxiliary in English which has led me to get a first approach to issues concerning historical linguistics and diachrony, sociolinguistics, syntax and the theories on language acquisition and variation. When not working on linguistics, I play experimental-improvised-free-rock music (violin). well, ok, I suppose that s all I have to say for the moment leni
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ghost
New Member
Posts: 44
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Post by ghost on Jul 14, 2004 17:18:59 GMT -5
Hi, Leni and everyone! I was wondering if for everyone here the music they listen to is an important part of their identity (this is what this forum expects, among other things). I am addicted to my profession, devoted to my husband, and love furry and feathery pets (but even if yours is a snake, lizard, fish, or spider I perfectly understand you), but music ... It is easier to say what I do not listen to - jazz, blues, certain varieties of folk; I have a difficult relationship with classical music - probably because one needs at least some ear for music to understand it, and I have absolutely none. On the other hand, hip-hop is cool, but disco brightens up my world, rock and techno are great for stressful times. I cannot identify myself by the kind of music I listen to. Natasha
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